15:42 < ems> npe: how about making everything colors themable in a central
place instead?
15:42 < npe> ems: bubu themes are the enemy of all things plan 9 and
inferno.
15:43 < uriel> ems: you obviously know nothing about Plan 9 and Inferno...
15:43 < npe> uriel: be nice. he's still uninitiated.
15:43 < uriel> npe: he doesn't seem very interested in initiating himself
either...
15:43 < ems> npe: themable != themes
15:44 < npe> ems: both are big no-nos according to the bell labs philosophy.
15:45 < ems> npe: just the other way around. "Do it once and do it good"
eg. make the colors change once and do it good. Instead of everywhere and poorly
15:45 < npe> ems: no.
15:45 < ems> sorry for half a line
15:45 < ems> just very tried
15:45 < npe> ems: one of the goals of plan 9 was a stable interface that was
good an immutable.
15:46 < ems> npe: are you changing the colors?
15:46 < ems> to me it seems yes.
15:46 < npe> ems: it's like the mac's aqua interface, apple may change it,
but they don't let the user do it.
15:46 < ems> you are changing acme to be like everything else.
15:46 < uriel> ems: he is changing the Inferno colors, not the Plan 9 colors
15:47 < npe> ems: I'm not trying to make a theme. I'm trying to make the
entire system adhere to the plan 9 principle of consistency and immutability.
15:47 < ems> the coloring code shouldn't be in every application
15:47 < uriel> Inferno != Plan 9 (althought IMHO they should be much more
closely integrated than they are now, having both in the same source tree would be
ideal)
15:47 < uriel> ems: there is no coloring code
15:47 < uriel> ems: have you ever writen any software?
15:47 < npe> ems: I'm with you there somewhat. but in plan 9 colors have
meaning.
15:48 < npe> acme's pastels identify it as acme, but adhere to the system's
overall coherence.
15:48 < uriel> codes are just a convention, like anything else
15:48 < uriel> s/codes/colors/
15:48 < npe> fgb also did a superb job with abaco. it's got a distinctive
look, but it still adheres to the plan 9 interface idea.
15:48 < uriel> good conventions well applied across the system are one of
the most important things
15:49 < ems> npe: to me it seems, every application has its own code that
sets its colors.
15:49 < uriel> npe: yup, except for the hideous html widgets :)
15:49 < uriel> npe: uhu? you need code that draws the components of the
application!
15:49 < npe> ems: right. the applications don't have to be the same(i.e.
abaco and acme) they just need to adhere to plan 9's look.
15:50 < npe> uriel: huh? sorry, be more specific.
15:50 < uriel> hey, that is like saying "all programs have their own code to
print text" just because they all write to stdout!
15:50 < uriel> there is zero code duplication
15:50 < uriel> the UI colors are part of what the application does, hence
the application still does _one_ thing and does it well
15:51 < ems> npe: which is not what the bell labs philosophy
15:51 < npe> ems: you're a little confused I think.
15:51 < uriel> but they are part of the interface of the application, not of
part of the functionality of the application
15:51 < ems> npe: no I just programmed with GTK
15:52 < npe> ems: it's a good idea to forget everything you know from there
;)
15:52 < uriel> god, that explains a few things..
15:53 < ems> npe: well GTK does follow US government requirements for people
with disablitys.
15:53 < npe> ems: think of it this way. plan 9 programs and colors are
*meant* to vary, but they vary in a consistent way that doesn't deviate from
central "feel" of the system.
15:53 < npe> ems: aaaaah... you want everything to be able to change so
that a person with bad vision could change the system so they could see it better
right?
15:54 < ems> npe: Iyes
15:54 < ems> -i
15:54 < npe> ems: I think this is a good idea, in theory, but one that
doesn't fit with plan 9 for the moment.
15:54 < ems> npe: hence the coloring isn't done directly by the application
15:54 < ems> npe: the application does it through another application.
15:55 < npe> ems: The plan 9 solution, I would speculate, would be to set up
a file server on top of /dev/draw that would gamma correct/enlarge etc...
15:55 < uriel> the GTK developers surely have serious mental disabilities
15:55 < npe> uriel: be nice.
15:55 < npe> uriel: I see what ems is trying to say.
15:56 < npe> tea break, brb. I'm exhausted.
15:56 < uriel> npe: I know many GTK developers, they are the worst scum ever
to touch Unix
15:56 < ems> uriel: Novell where the ones who sponsored the development of
US Government requirements, so they could sell their products to the Government
15:56 < uriel> ems: wrong, it was Sun
15:56 < ems> uriel: I think you are correct on this one.
15:57 < uriel> still, it's hard to tell if Sun or Novell is the msot
braindamaged
15:57 < uriel> ems: as usual
15:57 < npe> back.
15:58 < npe> ems: do you understand what I was saying about the filter?
15:58 < ems> npe: that was quick
15:58 < ems> npe: yes
15:58 < ems> npe: what about color blind people
15:58 < npe> well, I have a hotpot ;)
15:58 < uriel> ems: if you try to be everything for everyone you will fail
miserably
15:58 < ems> npe: there are more to the requirement than bad eye sight
15:58 < npe> ems: that's easy, filter the tuples to change the colors to a
visible spectrum.
15:59 < uriel> ems: anyway, it's trivial to modify Plan 9 to make it
accessible to anyone(IIRC they had a blind hacker at Bell Labs for quite some
time), that can't be said of byzantine systems that try to predict all possible
requirements in advance
15:59 < ems> npe: but that effects everything. Not just applications.
15:59 < npe> ems: eh?
15:59 < npe> what do you mean?
15:59 < uriel> ems: do you know any Plan 9 user that is color blind and has
any problems with how Plan 9 apps are?
16:00 < npe> uriel: he's making a good hypothetical point.
16:00 < ems> npe: it effects photos, etc.
16:00 < uriel> rule 1) don't speculate about problems that don't exist
16:00 < ems> uriel: that wasn't the way of Bell Labs.
16:00 < uriel> ems: I don't think you have a clue about what the Bell Labs
way was
16:00 < uriel> (and you have demostrated it many times already)
16:00 < npe> ems: so? a person with a sight disability isn't going to be
able to see the photos any better than the application.
16:00 < npe> uriel: be nice.
16:01 < ems> uriel: Plan 9 wasn't only made for only what Bell Labs wanted
to do.
16:01 < uriel> should Plan 9 apps also take into account people that have
lost their arms?
16:01 < npe> uriel: sure.
16:01 < uriel> ems: talk about what you know/understand, please
16:01 < uriel> npe: oh, then we can't have any app that requires a keyboard!
16:01 < uriel> many people can't use keyboards!
16:01 < uriel> much less mouse
16:02 < uriel> requiring a mouse is evil
16:02 < npe> uriel: don't be silly. they have a special device for people
without the use of their limbs.
16:02 < npe> it's called a unicorn or something similar.
16:02 < npe> again, you just set up a different fileserver for /dev/
whatever that maps the input.
16:02 < uriel> I have the perfect test: could Stephen Hawking use acme?
16:03 < uriel> if Stephen Hawking can't use it, then it's wrong, we have to
change every application so Stephen Hawking can use them
16:03 < npe> uriel: yes.
16:03 < uriel> npe: no
16:03 < uriel> this is insanity
16:03 < npe> uriel: you know better than this. the whole point of private
namespaces and stuff is that you can represent different things in a cohesive way.
16:03 < npe> uriel: no it's not.
16:03 < uriel> the Plan 9 user interface is designed for a certain kind of
people, other peole with different abilities use different interfaces
16:03 < npe> uriel: and it's a problem plan 9 is uniquely able to solve.
16:03 < ems> npe: lets say someone couldn't see the color blue. And has a
photo of his son wearing a blue T-shirt. If he was to filter blue to be a
different color, then the photo doesn't look real to him...
16:04 < uriel> npe: just because Plan 9 _can_ solve it, doesn't mean every
app should be designed for it
16:04 < uriel> npe: _big_ difference
16:04 < npe> ems: then he opens a new rio window without the file server.
private namespaces all the way baby.
16:04 < npe> uriel: I agree with you there. but you're making a strawman.
16:04 < uriel> ems: you are insane
16:04 < ems> npe: a color blind person only needs the thing that he need to
use the system to be a differnet color
16:05 < npe> uriel: no he's not and he's making a good point, he just
doesn't understand how to solve the problem.
16:05 < uriel> the fundamental Unix and Plan 9 philosphy is: Worse is
Better, which means the perfect is the enemy of the good, and which means that you
have to know which problems to solve, and which ones to ignore
16:05 < npe> ems: no duh, I just told you how to solve it.
16:05 < ems> npe: private namespace, I know.
16:05 < uriel> what problems are worth solving, and which ones are worth
ignoring is the hard part
16:06 < ems> npe: but is filtering better than just changing the color of
what is needed to be usable?
16:06 < npe> ems: yes.
16:06 < uriel> ems: yea, I know, make the colors random, because the colors
some people can see are different from others!
16:06 < uriel> hell, what the fuck do we have bitmaped displays at all, what
about completely blind people!
16:06 < ems> uriel: great idea!!!11oneoneone
16:07 < npe> uriel: relax. ems has a good point.
16:07 < uriel> a blind people would _never_ be able to use acme, nor should
he be able to use acme, because acme is intrinsecally designed for people that can
see bitmaped displays
16:07 < uriel> npe: bullshit
16:07 < uriel> npe: it's an idiotic point
16:07 < uriel> a totally idiotic and retarded point
16:07 < npe> uriel: relax. blind people use acme easily.
16:08 < uriel> npe: bullshit
16:08 < ems> uriel: yes, but there are some problems we can solve without
any harm to normal people
16:08 < uriel> blind people would rather use ed than acme
16:08 < uriel> ems: go use gnome, they have your same philosphy
16:08 < uriel> and stop wasting our time with completely imaginary problems
that don't exists and that have never affected any Plan 9 user
16:09 < uriel> when we have a color blind user, I'm sure he will figure out
a way to get things to work for him
16:09 < uriel> it's not hard and there are thousands of ways it could be
done
16:09 < npe> uriel: that's probably true. ed is better suited to blind
people. however it's perfectly feasable to make a file system wrapper for acme
that reads out the text bodies and the tags etc...
16:09 < uriel> but it's not _our_ problem right now
16:09 < uriel> npe: that would be completely unuseable
16:10 < ems> Plan 9 should ONLY support the hardware uriel uses.
16:10 < uriel> npe: next you figure a way for blind people to do mouse
chording, ok?
16:10 < uriel> ems: you are a moron
16:10 < npe> uriel: that's even easier.
16:10 < uriel> read the fucking Plan 9 papers
16:10 < npe> uriel: what does mouse chording achieve?
16:11 < uriel> there are billions of things that the Plan 9 developers
decided to _IGNORE_
16:11 < uriel> because they were not worth the trouble
16:11 < uriel> and that is the _greatest_ things about Plan 9
16:11 < uriel> all the idiotic crap it doesn't try to solve because it
doesn't need to
16:11 < npe> uriel: that's true, but plan 9's structure makes those problems
much more easy to grasp and solve.
16:11 < uriel> npe: sure, so what? that doesn't mean that we have to until
it's actually needed
16:11 < uriel> npe: example: right to left text
16:12 < npe> uriel: I agree with you.
16:12 < uriel> Plan 9 doesn't support right to left text, and I sure as hell
hope it never will
16:12 < ems> I beg to differ
16:12 < uriel> Plan 9 doesn't support internationalization of application
messages(aka locales in lunix world)
16:12 < uriel> and the day it supports locales I will shot myself
16:12 < uriel> I swear
16:12 < ems> :)
16:13 < uriel> because that is _NOT_ a problem Plan 9 is trying to solve,
and it should not be
16:13 < uriel> Plan 9, as a whole, also follows the "do one thing, and do it
well"
16:13 < ems> Why shouldn't it?
16:13 < npe> uriel: plan 9 could easily support right to left text too.
*without changing the underlying system* which is why it's cool.
16:13 < ems> Who died and left you in charge?
16:13 < npe> ems: you be nice too.
16:13 < uriel> ems: that directly conflicts with the basic principles of the
Unix/Plan 9 textual interface design
16:13 < ems> Who let you to stop others to add such things?
16:14 < uriel> npe: I don't think you have much clue of how complex
supporting right to left is
16:14 < uriel> npe: you need to allow mixed text of right to left and left
to right, and all sorts of other crap that is just _INSANE_
16:14 < npe> ems: think of it this way. uriel isn't stopping anyone. but
if you want to do something funky there are ways to do it without altering the
underlying system.
16:14 < uriel> ems: no one will add it, because it's obviously _IDIOTIC_
16:15 < uriel> and because it breaks everything
16:15 < uriel> just like in fucking lunix
16:15 < uriel> that the output of ps changes depending on your fucking
locale!
16:15 < ems> if it breaks everything, it means it is already broken
16:15 < uriel> how the fucking hell is one supposed to write shell scripts?
16:15 < ems> it just doesn't have yet to be seen broken
16:15 < uriel> ems: no, moron, it's _right_
16:15 < uriel> ems: you are a fucking idiot
16:15 < npe> uriel: calm down.
16:15 < uriel> ems: go read The Unix Programming Environment
16:16 < uriel> ems: you have no fucking idea how unix works and how it's
supposed to work, so until you learn even the most basic stuff, stop wasting my
time
16:16 < uriel> go read all the papers BWK wrote
16:16 < ems> uriel: how am I forcing you to 'waste your time'?
16:16 < uriel> ems: in now way *plonk*
16:17 < uriel> enough of this idiotic insanity
16:17 < npe> ems: localization would work like this IMO, you create a new
set of applications/man pages whatever and then just bind it to where the original
ones were.
16:17 < uriel> god, oh, lord, why do we have to put with this shit?
16:17 < uriel> can't people let Plan 9 die in peace?
16:17 < npe> uriel: because it's good. people are drawn to it, they don't
know way and then they gradually understand it.
16:17 < uriel> wasn't the fate of Unix
16:17 < uriel> misserable enough?
16:18 < npe> uriel: relax.
16:18 < uriel> wasn't all the necrophilia practiced on the rotting corpse of
unix, all full of worms, disgusting enough?
16:19 < npe> uriel: chill with the rant. the zombie of unix is still eating
brains, but it's up to other people to realize better ways. horse to water and
all that.
16:20 < uriel> yes, the zombie of unix is still eating brains, and people
already want to make another zombie out of Plan 9?
16:20 < uriel> and what is worse, make a zombie with the same idiotic ideas
that made Unix a zombie
16:21 < __20h__> Back from work.
16:21 < __20h__> Heil Jahwe!
16:21 < __20h__> How are things going down there with judaism?
16:23 < __20h__> Silence.
16:24 < ems> Odd
16:24 < ems> __20h__: it seems like you kill everyones moods for arguing
16:24 < __20h__> Actually, I don't like religious extremists.
16:24 < __20h__> Are you one of that people, that wear such a stupid hat?
16:25 < __20h__> Or a normal one?
16:25 < ems> __20h__: you don't like uriel?
16:25 < __20h__> No, I don't like you.
16:25 < ems> He is from the Bell Labs faith
16:26 < __20h__> I don't care about your faith.
16:26 < __20h__> So I make jokes of it.
16:26 < __20h__> But we've got jewish software now for Plan 9.
16:26 < __20h__> app% הןהי
16:26 < __20h__> Jahwe!
16:27 < __20h__> Yeah, ported god to Plan 9.
16:27 < npe> ems: well, think of it this way, if you want to do left to
right why not mirror the screen?
16:28 < uriel> npe: that can't work, you obviously don't understand the
problem
16:28 < __20h__> Back to the crappy disabilities topic from above. The
question there is: Why is the social system of your country unable to get every
disabled person a butler?
16:28 < __20h__> So they don't need to use a computer.
16:28 < npe> uriel: I probably don't enlighten me.
16:28 < uriel> npe: in right to left scripts, you can have interleaved words
that are right to left
16:28 < uriel> npe: trust me, it's _REALLY_ fucked up
16:28 < npe> for example?
16:28 < uriel> I don't know, go read on the subject, but it's total waste of
time
16:29 < uriel> there are billions of fucked up rules that one has to follow
16:29 < npe> uriel: I'm sure it is. again, enlighten me. any pointers?
16:29 < uriel> let me see.. google probably has them, I have not looked
into this crap for ages
16:29 < __20h__> People, that's called globalisation.
16:29 < uriel> (and never really cared for it, but I ahve seen others
trying, and it's just insane)
16:29 < __20h__> If you don't follow, then economy will kill you.
16:29 < __20h__> Throw your culture away and get GLOBAL!
16:29 < ems> npe: the problem is left to right and right to left. And then
things that can be both, eg. 1234567890
16:30 < npe> ems: got it, looking at a page about hebrew and arabic now.
16:31 < uriel> culture == nationalism == religion == evil
16:31 < __20h__> It's complexity.
16:31 < uriel> npe: http://www.unicode.org/faq/bidi.html
16:31 < __20h__> But if you want Locales, then you know where to find it.
16:32 -!- ems is now known as oat
16:33 < uriel> __20h__: in hell
16:33 < npe> uriel: so when you right a number in a bidi language it goes
the opposite way, in what order do you write it?
16:33 < __20h__> uriel, which one? We've got many here in the channel.
16:33 < __20h__> Even a socialist one.
16:33 -!- oat is now known as ems
16:34 < uriel> npe: what the fuck do I know or care?
16:34 < npe> Okay let's say I write "12345 cupcakes" would I write "54321
cupcakes"?
16:34 < uriel> npe: and it's not only numbers BTW
16:34 < npe> uriel: because it's interesting?
16:34 < uriel> npe: you can have a whole half line in one direction and the
rest in the other
16:34 < npe> uriel: I know. I'm fascinated by the problem.
16:34 < npe> uriel: Yeah, I know that much.
16:34 < uriel> yea, really fascinating, and really useless and idiotic
16:35 < npe> uriel: not at all. my uni is about to do a lot of work with
arabic.
16:35 < __20h__> I would first concentrate on being able to use Sam with
vertical scripts.
16:35 < uriel> npe: then use special software to deal with that crap
16:35 < uriel> npe: or use a saner language
16:35 < npe> uriel: well I still think plan 9 is uniquely suited to dealing
with this sort of thing.
16:35 < uriel> fuck, acme doesnt' even do wordwarping, what does it care
about all this crap?
16:36 < uriel> npe: sure, but don't even dream of contaminating existing
Plan 9 infrastructure with such specialized crap
16:36 < uriel> it just happens to be text, but it's a extremely specialized
domain
16:36 < npe> uriel: I never would. I know better, you'd add a filter.
16:37 < uriel> npe: how you "add a filter" on top of sam or acme?
16:37 < uriel> it just doesn't work
16:37 < __20h__> There is first needed an appropriate input method for all
directions.
16:37 < uriel> if only because right to left is not even the biggest part of
the problem
16:37 < npe> uriel: you bind something on top of the filesystem.
16:38 < uriel> there all sorts of oddities that just don't map into a stream
of characters
16:38 < __20h__> If you've got the input method, then you can go for
designing the software.
16:38 < uriel> npe: I fails to see how that helps
16:38 < uriel> npe: this is all a user interface/presentation issue
16:38 < uriel> (data representation is _mostly_(but nowhere close to
completely) solved by using UTF-8/unicode)
16:38 < npe> uriel: yes, I know.
16:38 < uriel> but there are tons of braindamage in unicode too
16:39 < __20h__> uriel, I think, if we have an eXtended script orientation
standard, from W3C, then everything is solved.
16:39 < __20h__> That is then used in XHTML.
16:39 < uriel> so for some things you would even have to scrap UTF-8
16:39 < uriel> yea, so you would as well use XHTML and all that crap
16:39 < npe> uriel: think of it this way, you put a file server in between
the body of text and the input.
16:39 < ems> A new charter set would be need for real mutli direction
support
16:40 < uriel> npe: still won't work, because as I said there is stuff that
you can't even represent in unicode
16:40 < npe> uriel: hmmm... that's the end then, unless you really go
bananas and really do change the underlying system.
16:40 < npe> uriel: what character sets do people use to deal with this?
16:41 < uriel> npe: they don't deal with it, they build and build and build,
and it just doesn't work
16:41 < uriel> there are tons of ad-hoc "solutions" though
16:41 < uriel> unicode suposedly solves most of it, but I have heard many
complaints about unicode
16:41 < uriel> it's all totally pointless anyway
16:41 < npe> uriel: :)
16:41 < npe> uriel: why is it pointless?
16:41 < uriel> because the whole point of software is _conventions_ so we
can communicate
16:41 < ems> It isn't pointless
16:42 < uriel> trying to acomodate every possible langauge in the universe
is _impossible_
16:42 < ems> it is pointless to try and solve the problem
16:42 < __20h__> We should do it, like they did with cars: Let the people
change to the new technology.
16:42 < __20h__> Force them to use what WE created. ;)
16:42 < uriel> what if in some other planet they use writing that is 3D
representations?
16:42 < npe> __20h__: heheh.
16:42 < uriel> __20h__: they can use whatever the hell they want
16:42 < __20h__> uriel, no.
16:42 < ems> uriel: what happens if they don't?
16:42 < npe> uriel: hmmm... that would be fun. I for one, would welcome
our new alien overlords
16:42 < __20h__> How are you going to earn money? :P
16:43 < __20h__> npe, we got Jews already, so don't start with Scientology.
16:43 < uriel> npe: what you have to realize is that software development is
the art of compromising, and that is why Plan 9 is so great, UTF-8 gives you 99%
of what you will ever need for very little cost, so it's very well worht it
16:43 < npe> __20h__: Hebrew overlords are fine too ;)
16:43 < uriel> the other 1% would take a million times more effort and
trouble, and you would never get it right
16:43 < npe> uriel: right.
16:43 < uriel> because trying to be everything for everyone is a _DOOMED_
aproach
16:44 < __20h__> npe, yeah some sissies, that first betray us and then say,
they rescued us.
16:44 < npe> uriel: I agree with you there. we're actually much closer than
you think.
16:44 < uriel> "the perfect is the enemy of the good"
16:44 < uriel> people that seek perfection are delusional, perfection
doesn't exist, and if you think it exists, you will get into a hideous mess
16:44 < ems> The human boody is mostly a prefect design
16:44 < npe> uriel: sure. but plan 9 has some very powerful abstractions
that can solve problems that other people solve in over complicated ways because
they don't understand them.
16:45 < uriel> ems: pffffffffffffffffffffffff..
16:45 < ems> it can do anything a human wants
16:45 < __20h__> ems, good joke.
16:45 < uriel> ems: that is why we live for ever?
16:45 < ems> :P
16:45 < __20h__> ems, because you're a Jew.
16:45 < __20h__> But real humans cannot do everything.
16:45 < __20h__> (I like to be antisemitic. :P)
16:45 < uriel> hey, I can't go live in pluto so all the other stupid humans
don't bother me...
16:45 < uriel> or can I?
16:45 < uriel> __20h__: that is because you are german ;P
16:45 < npe> uriel: that was my main issue with ems, he was trying to force
a modification on the software when it was better solved with plan 9's modular way
of doing things.
16:46 < __20h__> jewfs;
16:46 < __20h__> terroristfs; (arabfs)
16:46 < uriel> npe: still Plan 9 will _never_ solve all the problems,
because it's designed for a certain kind of problems
16:46 < npe> uriel: right, again I agree with you.
16:47 < uriel> npe: that was one of the things that brought the downfall of
Unix, that because it's amazing design, it was very easy to make it addapt to
almost any problem, and people did that, and ended with an abomination of a mess
16:47 < ems> uriel: npe is trying to solve a problem, that acme colors are
not the same as inferno's.
16:47 < npe> uriel: but there are certain things you were claiming weren't
worth the effort(and they probably weren't the way oat proposed them) that could
be solved quite easily from my (naive) perspective using plan 9.
16:48 < ems> uriel: I was saying if he solved in a different way, it was
other advanatages
16:48 < uriel> there is a sotry, I wish I could find the quote, I think it
was BWK who said: "in the first days of Unix people from other systems would come
and ask us 'but, can unix do foo' and they would say 'no, but we can have it
implemented by tomorrow'
16:48 < npe> uriel: right, which is why plan 9 rocks. solutions don't have
to integrate with the whole system, completely disparate things can be represented
in a way that doesn't force you to mess with the system as a whole.
16:48 < uriel> and that is what killed Unix, specially after the kids on LSD
got their hands on it in Berkeley
16:48 < uriel> they thought that because they _could_ do something, it had
to be a good idea
16:49 < npe> ems: I agree that your way has advantages *in the unix way of
doing things*.
16:49 < __20h__> But you've got different LSD's.
16:49 < uriel> that is the most common mistake I see in the software
industry: that people think that just because they _can_ do something, that means
it must be a good idea
16:49 < __20h__> All adapted to different kinds of humans.
16:49 < __20h__> Still missing JewBSD.
16:49 < __20h__> :P
16:50 < uriel> that problem comes from the application of the rules of the
real world, where phisical limitations are a good indication of what is a good and
a bad idea, to the software world, where your mind is the only limitation
16:51 < npe> uriel: IMO it's the lack of collective memory and very
subjective idea of what is "good".
16:51 < uriel> phisics and other limitations part of the phisical world keep
us in check, but there are not such limitations with software, except hardware,
and as hardware gets more powerful, the quality of software decreases
16:51 < npe> uriel: did you read wirth's paper and follow up? about
software jewels?
16:51 < uriel> because the amount of stupid things one can do with more
powerful hardware grows faster than the amount of useful things
16:51 < npe> uriel: yup and they can be quantified and judged in a way that
computer software can't.
16:52 < uriel> npe: no, I haven't but I should
16:52 < npe> uriel: the follow up has some nice rebuttals to your way of
thinking. I think you should read it.
16:52 < __20h__> Die Tschudn, die Tschuden ...
16:52 < uriel> there is a very interesting thing also about creativity: that
one has better ideas when one is under a very strict set of restrictions
16:52 < uriel> that is a very well understood phenomenta in the arts
16:53 < uriel> where artists often produce their master works under the most
restrictive conditions, and then when they have more possibilities they produce
more crap
16:53 < uriel> (of course that is a generalization, and particularly art is
difficult to evaluate...)
16:53 < uriel> but it's even more clearly seen in engineering
16:53 < npe> uriel: but then again, restrictions are what lead you to usb
over ip when you could use 9p.
16:54 < uriel> specially for example in war times
16:54 < __20h__> I do SOAP over IP.
16:54 < uriel> npe: nonsense
16:54 < __20h__> SOAP over HTTP over IP.
16:54 < uriel> npe: it's freedom that leads you to that
16:54 < uriel> people does those idiotic things because they can
16:54 < uriel> because they can get away with it
16:54 < ems> uriel because the amount of stupid things one can do with more
powerful hardware grows faster than the amount of useful things <<< Yes I
can do more stupid things with my faster phone.
16:54 < uriel> if the environment were much more harsh, they could not get
away with such insanity
16:54 < ems> phone != mobile
16:54 < npe> uriel: they do those idiotic things because they're so caught
in a certain way of thinking they can't abstract a more general and elegant
solution.
16:55 < ems> you can do many stupid thing with your mobile, or cell phone as
the Americans call it.
16:55 < uriel> npe: but those limitations are only in their mind
16:55 < uriel> npe: and that is what stiffles their creativity
16:55 < npe> uriel: I understand you now.
16:55 < npe> uriel: you're talking about physical restrictions.
16:55 < __20h__> Art is to produce useful things.
16:55 < __20h__> Either emotional or practical.
16:56 < __20h__> And it's mostly luck, if you find a solution.
16:56 < npe> __20h__: what is useful?
16:56 < __20h__> npe, what solves a problem.
16:56 < uriel> npe: look at it this way, during war times is when the
biggest engineering breackthrus are made, even under themost harsh conditions,
look at all the amazing stuff germany did even very close to the end of the war
when they were really fucked up
16:56 < npe> __20h__: can't you solve useless problems? 9fans would
probably mention linus's beloved tlbs.
16:57 < __20h__> npe, every person has other problems.
16:57 < npe> uriel: aaaah... like how I always write better the day before
the deadline?
16:57 < __20h__> Like I got one with ems and his stupid hat.
16:57 < uriel> npe: you will notice that it's morons that never really had
to deal with really slow hardware that are the ones that worry most about
"performance"(and in the end by micro optimizing and over-designing end up with
the slowest and most bloated systems)
16:57 < uriel> npe: yea, that too
16:58 < uriel> npe: also restrictions give one a sense of purpose
16:58 < npe> uriel: you're conflating ignorance and stupidity.
16:58 < uriel> npe: and help one focus one what really matters
16:58 < ems> __20h__: what stupid hat?
16:58 < __20h__> ems, look onto your head.
16:58 < uriel> npe: hum?
16:58 < ems> __20h__: I see/feel no hat.
16:59 < __20h__> ems, there is one.
16:59 < npe> uriel: think of it this way. there are two kinds of
incompetence: one that comes from lack of knowledge and one that comes from lack
of ability.
16:59 < npe> uriel: I get the feeling that you assume both are the same.
16:59 < uriel> npe: not really
16:59 < __20h__> Or we define it like that: art is a part of the government
budget, that always earns not enough money.
16:59 < uriel> I think actually both are one, but a different one: lack of
understanding of your own limitations
17:00 < uriel> (either knowledge limitations or skill limitations)
17:00 < ems> __20h__: hahaha
17:01 < uriel> (actually, I'm not completely convinced of this last
statement, but I think there is something to it)
17:01 < npe> uriel: think of it this way a "moron" that's never had to write
for a limited set of hardware isn't willfully stupid. They can actually be quite
smart, but they've never been in a situation that forces them to develop the kind
of judgement that would make them more effective.
17:02 < uriel> npe: that is not the problem, the problem is if they are
aware or not that they have that deficency
17:02 < npe> uriel: that's where your war analogy is a very good one.
people that would otherwise be "morons" in your book suddenly discover lots of new
insights after being forced into a new way of thinking.
17:02 < npe> uriel: exactly.
17:02 < npe> uriel: and how do you solve that problem?
17:02 < uriel> npe: exterminating humanity
17:03 < npe> uriel: well that's certainly a very effective way to do it.
17:03 < npe> uriel: extermfs?
17:03 < uriel> people don't like to know that they are not omnipotent
17:04 < __20h__> holocaustfs;
17:04 < npe> uriel: sure, especially when their flaws are pointed out in
ways that make them feel like cow poo.
17:04 < __20h__> Modern science are just developed empirical methods.
17:04 < __20h__> Random events control it.
17:04 < npe> __20h__: not entirely IMO, but a good generalization.
17:04 < npe> __20h__: ever read any thomas kuhn?
17:05 < __20h__> npe, I'm trying to avoid propaganda.
17:05 < __20h__> I read W3C standards.
17:05 < uriel> npe: cow poo is cow poo
17:05 < __20h__> If you've read two of them, then you're like the oracle of
Delphi; full of crack.
17:05 < uriel> __20h__: ROFL
17:06 < npe> uriel: semiotics?
17:07 < ems> Killing humanity, to make HUMANS more invoative. HAHAHAHA
17:10 < __20h__> ems, we tried that 60 years before.
17:10 < __20h__> It did not work.
17:10 < __20h__> uriel, and you're talking about war and German inventions
...
17:10 < __20h__> :P
17:10 < uriel> npe: I don't like semiotics
17:11 < npe> uriel: I can tell :)
17:11 < uriel> ems: who said to make humans more inovative was the goal?
the goal is to make them less of a frking pain in the ass
17:12 < uriel> three very good friends of mine, all them not knowing
eachother and having basically nothing in common, turned to be really interested
in semiotics
17:12 < uriel> that was really sad..
17:12 < uriel> semiotics is all mental masturbation and handwaving
17:12 < ems> uriel: crap is better than nothing.
17:12 < uriel> ems: wrong
17:12 < ems> uriel: a 386 is better than nothing.
17:13 < uriel> ems: nothing is much better than crap, nothing doesn't stink,
and doesn't spread disseases, and doesn't stick to the sole of your shoes
17:13 < uriel> a 386 is not crap, at least in the sense that it's a turing
machine, which can be very useful if you program it in certain ways
17:14 < uriel> really, semiotics is one of the most idiotic and pointless
branches of philosphy, and given that most of philosphy is just iddle mental
masturbation, that is quite an acomplishment
17:16 < npe> uriel: lol... you're saying semiotics is pointless is like a
unix user saying plan 9 sucks because it doesn't have X or emacs. You don't
understand it so you can't see its merits.
17:17 < npe> BTW I was a cs/philos major in college.
17:18 < uriel> hey, vt3 also studied some philosphy
17:18 < uriel> philosopy is a total waste of time
17:20 < npe> uriel: go read "prometheus unbound" and do the exercises. It
will help your depression too. You can find it as a pdf ebook.
17:21 < uriel> nah, my interest in philosphy is on hold until I get cancer
and I have no hope of every doing anything useful in what I have left of life
